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Old 12-19-2013, 12:58 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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Ok. I see where you're coming from. I guess I'm not being agnostic becuase I'm the one building / piloting the deck. So I'm suffering from not seeing the bad side of my 'snowflake'. Ha ha ha.
its easy to get distracted "tuning" your deck with different cards for different matchups and forget why you started playing the deck in the first place.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:01 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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why would i listen to you about the weakest card in the deck when owen has probably played 10x as many matches with the deck as you? do you really think you are that much better a deck builder than him that you could overcome his vastly greater experience? it looks to me that devour flesh is much better in the mirror than any of the other options, and with the rise of blood baron following GP DFW, it makes sense to play more.
I don't care if you listen or not. it's marginally better in the mirror, and much better against the BW list with 4 blood baron. Those are not the reasons he made the change, the logic he justified it with was way shitty, and due to the % of the field playing this deck I don't think those justify the change regardless.

You can bash your head against the wall trusting "more experienced" players and tournament evidence to tell you which decks are good all you want, it's not going to help you top 8 a pro tour.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:11 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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I don't care if you listen or not. it's marginally better in the mirror, and much better against the BW list with 4 blood baron. Those are not the reasons he made the change, the logic he justified it with was way shitty, and due to the % of the field playing this deck I don't think those justify the change regardless.

You can bash your head against the wall trusting "more experienced" players and tournament evidence to tell you which decks are good all you want, it's not going to help you top 8 a pro tour.
at least owen has some logic to justify his decision, not just "its the worst card in the deck". on power level alone, any removal spell in that slot will be the worst card in the deck. i believed you and bing when you laughed about owen's failure after reading his article. but then, owen and others had continued success with his version. i'm not blindly trusting tournament results or more experienced players, just as i'm not blindly trusting your opinion. i'm questioning why you think you are right on the occasions when what you say doesn't line up with what i see from others and i'm not in a position to make my own judgment. you seem to think i'm only going with tournament evidence to make decisions about deck construction, but i've got a trophy on my mantle from winning a tournament by going against convention. tournament data and professional advice are not one side of a coin, where thinking for myself is the other side. both are tools to use. because i can and do use both, i'm advantaged over people who only use one.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

Flesh saved me once vs naya hexproof. It sucked once thanks to BTE. I also played against 0 Barons(I think). I think Owen predicted the meta incorrectly.
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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Originally Posted by Cecilia Jupe View Post
at least owen has some logic to justify his decision, not just "its the worst card in the deck". on power level alone, any removal spell in that slot will be the worst card in the deck. i believed you and bing when you laughed about owen's failure after reading his article. but then, owen and others had continued success with his version. i'm not blindly trusting tournament results or more experienced players, just as i'm not blindly trusting your opinion. i'm questioning why you think you are right on the occasions when what you say doesn't line up with what i see from others and i'm not in a position to make my own judgment. you seem to think i'm only going with tournament evidence to make decisions about deck construction, but i've got a trophy on my mantle from winning a tournament by going against convention. tournament data and professional advice are not one side of a coin, where thinking for myself is the other side. both are tools to use. because i can and do use both, i'm advantaged over people who only use one.
You refuse to play monoblack so I don't see how I can automatically interpret your questions as asking me what logic I'm using to justify Rietzl & sperling's card choices. I don't have to provide counter logic as to why dont we add more devour flesh because they already explained & justified the 2 2 1 split to Owen when they handed him the decklist.

4 Hero's downfall
2 ultimate price
2 devour flesh
1 doom blade

Hero's downfall is your swiss army knife. It kills everything you absolutely have to kill at a manacost premium. You want more removal to compliment your thoughtsieze & hit them with demon/spectre strategy, 2 mana removal also synergizes well with packrat to give you lethal on the critical turn.

see I don't even know what you're asking and now I'm rambling on. Devour flesh is unplayable garbage by itself. Standard right now is super low power, so it's like playing limited. The only reason you play 2 over more price & doom blade is it kills spectre, demon, stormbreath dragon, mana dudes, packrats, bloodbaron, frosterburn weird, and boros reckoner, with a condition that is only manageable in a deck with 7 other spot removal and 4 thoughtsieze : they can't have another creature in play. This is a card that needs serious support to be passable. If it wasn't for the fact that you can initiate races where they sacrifice creatures to push in damage against desecration demon, then target yourself and gain 7-8 life, I wouldn't even play it.

Remember how I refused to play the card in limited? Standard is like limited right now, and the reasons I hated it in draft remain the same. The logic used to justify it from the proponent parties is the same. They say it kills everything, I know it only kills the creature you want to kill the least and it gains them life as well, which is extremely relevant. Hero's downfall is the card that kills everything.

Anyway I just don't understand why you don't think you're in a position to make your own judgement, is the point. If you want to joust over whether devour flesh is a better pick in draft or a better card in standard than ultimate price I'm happy to joust but don't come wave Owen's success in my face as evidence of it being better just because I said it was worse. You're perfectly capable of looking at Rietzel's list, owen's, and the BW list with no nightveil spectre and deciding which one is better and why.
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:40 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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Originally Posted by Spike614 View Post
You refuse to play monoblack so I don't see how I can automatically interpret your questions as asking me what logic I'm using to justify Rietzl & sperling's card choices. I don't have to provide counter logic as to why dont we add more devour flesh because they already explained & justified the 2 2 1 split to Owen when they handed him the decklist.

4 Hero's downfall
2 ultimate price
2 devour flesh
1 doom blade

Hero's downfall is your swiss army knife. It kills everything you absolutely have to kill at a manacost premium. You want more removal to compliment your thoughtsieze & hit them with demon/spectre strategy, 2 mana removal also synergizes well with packrat to give you lethal on the critical turn.

see I don't even know what you're asking and now I'm rambling on. Devour flesh is unplayable garbage by itself. Standard right now is super low power, so it's like playing limited. The only reason you play 2 over more price & doom blade is it kills spectre, demon, stormbreath dragon, mana dudes, packrats, bloodbaron, frosterburn weird, and boros reckoner, with a condition that is only manageable in a deck with 7 other spot removal and 4 thoughtsieze : they can't have another creature in play. This is a card that needs serious support to be passable. If it wasn't for the fact that you can initiate races where they sacrifice creatures to push in damage against desecration demon, then target yourself and gain 7-8 life, I wouldn't even play it.

Remember how I refused to play the card in limited? Standard is like limited right now, and the reasons I hated it in draft remain the same. The logic used to justify it from the proponent parties is the same. They say it kills everything, I know it only kills the creature you want to kill the least and it gains them life as well, which is extremely relevant. Hero's downfall is the card that kills everything.

Anyway I just don't understand why you don't think you're in a position to make your own judgement, is the point. If you want to joust over whether devour flesh is a better pick in draft or a better card in standard than ultimate price I'm happy to joust but don't come wave Owen's success in my face as evidence of it being better just because I said it was worse. You're perfectly capable of looking at Rietzel's list, owen's, and the BW list with no nightveil spectre and deciding which one is better and why.

how is my waving the success of owen in your face to support a claim any different than you using his failure at dfw to support your claim?
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Old 12-19-2013, 03:01 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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how is my waving the success of owen in your face to support a claim any different than you using his failure at dfw to support your claim?
First of all obviously it's a half-joke since we're trying to figure out why the winner of GP albuquerque can't day 2 GP ft worth. However, this is still a substantially different claim than "decklist A is just as good as decklist B".

Second, he was sideboarding incorrectly against the most played archetype, which is my pick for reason most likely to give him a loss where he would've won.

lastly, my claim was not that my list was better. It was that deckbuilding is an important skill. It was assumed in my statement his current list is worse than his GP winning list, and all empirical evidence actually supports this (Standard GP success > multiformat invitational decklist success, or SCG open success. bing 5th owen 1st rietzel 8th etc.).

You're really undermining the point of focus in my statement which I'm starting to realize that without an understanding of deck construction sideboarding is playing darts in the dark. If understanding deck construction is integral to sideboarding and sideboarding is the 2nd most important skill to mulligans? or something similar to that weight of importance of learning it might be greater than I had realized.
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Old 12-19-2013, 03:27 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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First of all obviously it's a half-joke since we're trying to figure out why the winner of GP albuquerque can't day 2 GP ft worth. However, this is still a substantially different claim than "decklist A is just as good as decklist B".

Second, he was sideboarding incorrectly against the most played archetype, which is my pick for reason most likely to give him a loss where he would've won.

lastly, my claim was not that my list was better. It was that deckbuilding is an important skill. It was assumed in my statement his current list is worse than his GP winning list, and all empirical evidence actually supports this (Standard GP success > multiformat invitational decklist success, or SCG open success. bing 5th owen 1st rietzel 8th etc.).

You're really undermining the point of focus in my statement which I'm starting to realize that without an understanding of deck construction sideboarding is playing darts in the dark. If understanding deck construction is integral to sideboarding and sideboarding is the 2nd most important skill to mulligans? or something similar to that weight of importance of learning it might be greater than I had realized.

You're undermining the credibility of your own statement by including this owen example that doesn't really fit. otherwise i agree with what you are saying.
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Old 12-19-2013, 03:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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You're undermining the credibility of your own statement by including this owen example that doesn't really fit. otherwise i agree with what you are saying.
I found that when I first started, sideboarding and mulligans were the two hardest things to learn / put into practice. The scope of understanding that you need to have to be able to make those decisions is pretty deep, IMO. I still have some issues sideboarding in some match ups but nowhere nearly as much as I did in the past.

I want to try building by committee using the elephant method at some point it the future.
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Old 12-19-2013, 03:50 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Chronicles of Weazy

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You're undermining the credibility of your own statement by including this owen example that doesn't really fit. otherwise i agree with what you are saying.
ya but it's current and entertaining. plus owen probably won't come here and be butthurt I called him out. although that did happen once, it was 100% bings fault
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