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Old 02-14-2017, 01:37 PM   #1631
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Default Re: Berni for President

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Originally Posted by skeletalpeacock View Post
Redditor nails why democrats lost

https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/com...trump/ddp45uf/

Worst part is nothing has changed
Well if it's the systemic problem this guy makes it out to be, it'll certainly take longer than 3 months to realistically change things.

The issue I mainly have with this post is that he's pointing out all these things that people didn't like when the Dems did it, but apparently it's no longer an issue or wasn't an issue when Trump did it. They didn't like it when Hillary shimmied because it didn't seem like she was taking them seriously? How was Trump's constant interrupting and derision the proper approach? They didn't like Obama speaking out on tragedy when he should've waited for all the facts? Why does Trump have no need of waiting or facts? They take exception to black people deigning themselves immune to being called racists? They're sucker punching black people at Trump rallies!

Or maybe it just didn't matter what was happening on the Trump side of things. "If the matter directly in front of me isn't to my liking, then any alternative is preferable." Yeah this steak isn't cooked to my liking, so this cup of bleach must be the better alternative.

My real takeaway from this is that for Dems to get back in the game, they're going to have to be politicians. You don't get power from the moral high ground, you get power from the actual high ground. The truth doesn't matter as much as appealing to the people you need votes from. Deflecting and pandering are what people want from politicians. Yes, those coal jobs are absolutely all coming back as soon as you put me in power!
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:42 PM   #1632
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Default Re: Berni for President

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Originally Posted by lazarusl View Post
Point 1 & 2: people are stupid if they think traditional rust belt jobs are ever coming back. Also, people are stupid in general.

Point 3: Hillary was condescending for not taking Trump seriously? If she had taken him seriously, she'd be criticized for elevating the idiot to respectability. This argument is really just another way of saying that woman wasn't respectful enough to the man she was standing next to in the debates.

Point 4 (Hillary's scandals): If people really cared about the scandals, they wouldn't have voted for the guy who bragged about sexually assaulting women. The Hillary scandal trope is just a pretext for not wanting to vote for an uppity woman.

Point 5 (Alt-left?): Some say Obama and Hillary are too liberal, some say they're too conservative, some say they're too moderate. See points 3 and 4; just a pretext for "they aren't white dudes".

Point 6 isn't even a point - not sure what the author is saying here. Backlash against the liberal media? Whatever, that's just a Limbaughian claim from the 90s that gets dusted off when convenient.

The more I read and speak with people, the more I'm convinced that people voted against Hillary because they don't like the idea of a woman in office, especially one who isn't interested in playing the Sarah Palin/Nikki Haley role of someone who wears bright lipstick and says feminism is bad, and/or they voted for Trump because they don't like brown people. Any other explanation is really just a corollary to those two reasons (i.e., I'm mad because I lost my job (but it's the brown people's fault, not mine for failing to get an education fit for the 21st century)).
Good luck at the midterms 👌
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:52 PM   #1633
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Default Re: Berni for President

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Originally Posted by Tsung View Post
Well if it's the systemic problem this guy makes it out to be, it'll certainly take longer than 3 months to realistically change things.

The issue I mainly have with this post is that he's pointing out all these things that people didn't like when the Dems did it, but apparently it's no longer an issue or wasn't an issue when Trump did it. They didn't like it when Hillary shimmied because it didn't seem like she was taking them seriously? How was Trump's constant interrupting and derision the proper approach? They didn't like Obama speaking out on tragedy when he should've waited for all the facts? Why does Trump have no need of waiting or facts? They take exception to black people deigning themselves immune to being called racists? They're sucker punching black people at Trump rallies!

Or maybe it just didn't matter what was happening on the Trump side of things. "If the matter directly in front of me isn't to my liking, then any alternative is preferable." Yeah this steak isn't cooked to my liking, so this cup of bleach must be the better alternative.

My real takeaway from this is that for Dems to get back in the game, they're going to have to be politicians. You don't get power from the moral high ground, you get power from the actual high ground. The truth doesn't matter as much as appealing to the people you need votes from. Deflecting and pandering are what people want from politicians. Yes, those coal jobs are absolutely all coming back as soon as you put me in power!
Your last paragraph. It's a game. Not a genuine discourse of enlightened, tolerant individuals exchanging ideas for the wellbeing of society. Republicans are playing it. Democrats are taking the high road, which dead-ends at a loss after falling off a cliff.

Most people aren't going to read anything but a headline, if anything at all about the news. Factor in that they don't trust the main stream media anymore and then all you have left is horrible headlines about democrats. If any of them so much as glanced at CNN or whatever, they probably heard about how racist and sexist their beliefs are or transgender bathrooms or something totally unrelatable like that.

Step one is probably not saying that kind of thing, even if you're certain it's true. Step zero is ending clickbait headlines, since those lying headlines wind up becoming the primary source of people's ideas instead of the articles content. Step three is offering something for everyone. There are people in the rust belt just following Maslow's hierarchy of needs. They would probably care more about social issues if they had some kind of positive message about jobs first.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:57 PM   #1634
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Default Re: Berni for President

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Originally Posted by lazarusl View Post
The more I read and speak with people, the more I'm convinced that people voted against Hillary because they don't like the idea of a woman in office, especially one who isn't interested in playing the Sarah Palin/Nikki Haley role of someone who wears bright lipstick and says feminism is bad, and/or they voted for Trump because they don't like brown people. Any other explanation is really just a corollary to those two reasons (i.e., I'm mad because I lost my job (but it's the brown people's fault, not mine for failing to get an education fit for the 21st century)).
Did you read that article from the reddit post? Some people voted for Trump for whatever reasons, "but every racist I know voted for Trump."

It's hard to beat out 100% of even a 20% voting block in most states.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:59 PM   #1635
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Default Re: Berni for President

We're 24 days in. Trump's approval rating is 40 percent and still dropping.

And we're embroiled in a legitimate scandal that has tremendous implications for foreign policy, of which the Trump administration has proven time and again (within 24 days) that they are laughably incapable of.

At this rate I think Democrats will do just fine.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:01 PM   #1636
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Default Re: Berni for President

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Originally Posted by skeletalpeacock View Post
Good luck at the midterms 👌
We'll see. I think he will be such a disaster that the Dems win the House in 2018, and the GOP will cut its losses at some point and go along with impeaching him to save the party (this could easily happen before 2018 if the polls are bad enough). That's the correct long-term play but it will come at the cost of losing Congress and the White House in 2020.

The problem is that doesn't address the issues you note with the Democratic Party, and some liberals will see it as a chance to push the envelope into territory others will consider radical.

Or, we'll be at war with China, North Korea, and Iran, which turns into WW3 when Putin tries to expand his territory further into Europe, and Trump & Bannon will use the war as an excuse to suspend the Constitution in general.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:06 PM   #1637
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Default Re: Berni for President

Its pretty sad that Hillary lost white women to trump by a good amount, although overall Trump did only get 42% of the female vote.

This should have been a slam dunk for Hillary. She didn't play the game though. So she lost working class and upper class white women. It wouldn't have taken her much in light of the whole pussy grabbing thing. But instead of giving a message about how she'd help families, she had discussions about diversity. People care about their families first. Shocking.

It's very difficult to explain away this demographic with the idea of sexism. Its a pure campaign failure. I guess you can run the race card if you'd rather assume that the whole demographic is racist than Hillary offered nothing for them. But if she did offer something substantial for this demographic, it sure isn't apparent to me. Trump offered jobs and economic scapegoats.

Rhetoric about sisterhood and getting a female president seems to be the main draw offered to that market. Doesn't seem close to me on the blind, and we have the numbers.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:11 PM   #1638
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Default Re: Berni for President

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Originally Posted by ennuistic View Post
We're 24 days in. Trump's approval rating is 40 percent and still dropping.

And we're embroiled in a legitimate scandal that has tremendous implications for foreign policy, of which the Trump administration has proven time and again (within 24 days) that they are laughably incapable of.

At this rate I think Democrats will do just fine.
I hope so. That whole status quo everyone ( including myself) was so excited about seeing shaken up sure is looking good now.

They seem to really have their clamps on the media, and everybody is so polarized now that I wonder whether or not Trump going down in flames will even take he Republican Party with him.

Like I barely see stuff on Russia now, and it felt fully dead before the resignation. I can see republicans just going " eh we were never with him anyway" and pulling it off.

But hopefully you're right. History is certainly on the side of that happening, and it tends to be good predictor for backlash.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:14 PM   #1639
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Default Re: Berni for President

I know a lot of women who are sexist toward other women.

Fuck, this is before your time, but one of Hillary's first scandals was when she responded to Bill's infidelity shit by saying she was no Tammy Wynette, standing by her man. Women, especially in the midwest, went fucking nuts over that. They were so offended that she dared to suggest a woman shouldn't just smile and stand by her man when he gets caught fucking other women. I feel like women are infinitely more likely to vote against a woman than black people are to vote against a black candidate or hispanics are to vote against an hispanic. Again, a large segment of America is only willing to vote for a woman if she's in the Sarah Palin, bible-thumping, family values mode.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...es-1992-214275
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:17 PM   #1640
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Default Re: Berni for President

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Originally Posted by binger View Post
Did you read that article from the reddit post? Some people voted for Trump for whatever reasons, "but every racist I know voted for Trump."

It's hard to beat out 100% of even a 20% voting block in most states.
Yup. Especially when the racists all turn out and everyone else is kind of apathetic and assume there's no way the worst could happen.
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